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#1 08-28-2009 11:31:49

TheMuslimAgorist
New member

The Baha'i Faith is a Soup.

I am strong believer that frank questions are necessary for an Independent Investigation of Truth, that dialogue is the crucible of Truth. An internally contradictory proposition can not conform to reason, and I was raised to believe that faith and reason should be in harmony. I want to share the questions I have about the Bahai Faith, and the experiences I've had asking them. I am always open to new evidence, and I certainly appreciate being corrected, with reason and evidence, where I am incorrect, or have misunderstood.

I am not from a religious family, but the Bahai faith was present in my home. When I took interest in religion at 15 I read the Bible and the Book of Certitude. With the Bible the historical authenticity of the text did not withstand scrutiny. With the Book of Certitude I had many reservations about the basic message. It just seemed to me at the time that the Bahia Faith was so broad, so inclusive, so relentless in its acceptance of everything... that it couldn't be true. Like it was so inclusive it didn't even exclude falsehood. If all religions are valid... then why this religion? If all scriptures are true, what about the contradictions? This frustration actually drove me away from God for years.

In college I read a book titled "The Mystics of Islam" by Reynold A. Nicholson. I knew a little something about Muhammad and Islam from my Baha'i background, but very little. What I discovered in this book is that the Quran is preserved in its original language. So, I was convinced of its historical authenticity. Then I read the account of the Isra Miraj, or the Night Journey and Ascension of Muhammad which convinced me of Muhammad's station as a prophet of God, and therefor the authenticity of his message. I knew very little else about Islam at the time, but entering Islam only meant testifying to the oneness of God and that Muhammad was his prophet. I made that testification simply because I believed those two things are true. This is the first, and to some extent only, religious certainty I have found.

This sparked an avalanche of religious studies. I wanted to know everything there was to know about any religion that believed these two things, that God is One, and Muhammad is His prophet. This meant examining the Sunnis and the Shia. Also, the Submitters, the Nation of Islam, and Thelema. And of course it meant returning to the Bahai Faith.

So, I returned to the Book of Certitude. I found that it confirmed the Quran was, "the surest testimony of God unto men." I also found the positive Truth claim I was looking for which could confirm Bahaulla's ministry rationally. Bahaullah writes that, "all the Prophets of God, whenever made manifest unto the peoples of the world, have invariably foretold the coming of yet another Prophet after them, and have established such signs as would herald the advent of the future Dispensation." Alhamdullilah! Praise be to God! A testable hypothesis! So I eagerly Emailed the most knowledgeable Bahais that I knew with a simple question, "Where did Muhammad foretell the coming of Bahaullah?"

The first response I got was a list of popular Quranic verses in Bahaullah's writings. This is not an answer. Indeed, Aliester Crowly implemented Quranic verses in his writings, as did Rashad Khalifa. In regards to evidence of authenticity, this is a total non sequitur. So I tried again.

The second response I got was a list of verses in the Bible that foretold a coming prophet. This is also not an answer. The Quran tells us that the previous scriptures were changed. So, how can I accept them as evidence now? Logic dictates that if you believe in both the Bible and the Quran, and the Quran says that the Bible was changed, and the Bible and the Quran contradict, you must believe in the account in the Quran. So, when the Bible says that Mary gave birth in a manger with Joseph and three wise men, but the Quran says that Mary gave birth alone under a palm tree, you must accept the Quranic narrative. But even if the Bible was reliable, the specific verses which are claimed to herald the coming of Bahuallah, (John 16:7-14, John 14:16 and Deuteronomy 18:18-19) are exactly the verses the Islamic scholars claim describe Muhammad. The claim made by Bahaullah is that each prophet tells us of the next. If that statement is the answer must be from Muhammad, not from the Bible. So I tried again.

The third and final response I got was an argument which was basically that if Muhammad warned of a false prophet that must logically mean that a true prophet is coming also. This too, is not an answer. If I came to you and said, "There's a man going to door to door in your neighborhood selling Bibles. If you see him send him away because he's a con artists" would you assume that I actually meant that there were two men going to door to door selling Bibles and one of them was a con artist and one of them was an honest salesman? But even if this was a logical argument, it still doesn't answer the question... Where did Muhammad foretell the coming of Bahaullah?

So, I returned to the text, and searched the Internet to find the answer myself.

Everything seems to orbit around the meaning of, "Seal of the Prophets." Muslims say this means that no prophet is coming after Muhammad. Bahais have lots of creative ways of getting around this verse. They say a seal can be closed and reopened. They tell me that Muhammad was the final Prophet in his line. They bombard me with Biblical verses that imply that Moses or Jesus were the final prophet. But the favorite seems to be the Bahai belief in the unity of the prophets. They say that Muhammad is the last prophet when he says he is the Seal, just like Jesus is the final prophet when he says that he is the "Alpha and the Omega." And all the Prophets are the same being, the same soul, the same spirit. And every prophet is a metaphysical return of all the other prophets. So every prophet from Adam to Bahaullah is the "Seal of the Prophets." First off... that renders the phrase meaningless. But here's the real problem. Jesus and John were alive at the same time... so who's got the soul? Is Moses the metaphysical return of Aaron or is Aaron the metaphysical return of Moses? Were Isaac and Ishmael both perfect reflections of God's light in their time at the same time that Abraham was the perfect reflection of God's light? But really it's this... if the world ends... if the day of judgment comes... as every scripture confirms... there must logically be a final prophet. But regardless that still doesn't tell me how Bahaullah fulfilled signs that Muhammad gave.

The answer cannot be in the Quran. The Book of the Law states, "The Quran which, though explicit in the laws and ordinances formulated by the Apostle of God, is silent on the all-important subject of succession." So the answer to this question must be in the Hadith. Bahais seem to accept some Hadith. I've seen them quoted, and referenced in Bahaullah's writings. And many Bahais online have sent me to prophecies about the Mehdi saying that this is the answer to my question. That Bahaullah was the Mehdi. But they also tell the Christians that Bahaullah was the second coming of Jesus, and Jesus and the Mehdi are so clearly distinct characters in Islamic eschatology. But, more important than that, if you're going to accept Hadith, you've got a much larger mountain to climb than just defining "Seal." Here's a limited selection:

"I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me."

"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me."

"Messengership and Prophethood have come to an end, and there will be no more Messengers or Prophets."

"The parable of myself and the Prophets is that of a man who built a house except for the space of one brick. Whoever entered it would look at that space and say, how good it is, apart from the space of that brick. My position is like that of that brick, and the Prophets end with me."

"No Prophet will come after me and there will, therefore, be no other community of followers of any new prophet."

Hadith like this are innumerable, and related by almost all of his closest companions. We're not talking about the Council of Nicaea here. We're talking about dozens of men and women who walked with and talked with the prophet himself who all unanimously agree that he spoke this way unambiguously. The Prophet even says this in his farewell sermon, during his final pilgrimage, "O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born." This sermon was in front of 120,000 and it's recorded in every major Hadith collection. Portions of it are quoted in Bahaullah's writings. And even though slight differences in recollection exist, this statement is in EVERY narration. If Bahaullah quotes portions of this sermon... that must mean that he has confidence in the authenticity of at least one narration. Logic dictates that he must have confidence in the authenticity of this statement.

So, these are the difficulties I have with accepting the Bahai Faith. Everything circles around the question of authenticity. Nothing this man has written holds any theological weight if his authority is not rooted in the prophetic tradition. So, the central, inescapable question remains, "Where did Muhammad foretell the coming of Bahaullah?" But in my experience, any Bahai who I have pressed with this question becomes hysterically angry. But I need this answer, and so should you, before I can believe the Bahai Faith has any validity. So, I'll leave you with the advice of Bahaullah himself... if religion is the source of your anger, you're better off without the religion.

 

#2 09-17-2009 18:03:14

enrico
New member

Re: The Baha'i Faith is a Soup.

Hi TheMuslimAgorist!

Thanks for writing such a long message about the Baha'i Faith.  You write about several important points and right now I can not answer them.  However, please make a note that because a Baha'i wrote or told you something, that does not mean that it is in the Writings.  Many Baha'is, myself included, make mistakes in quoting and misunderstanding the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

Just to point one of those mistakes out, please be aware that according to the Baha'i teachings Baha'u'llah was NOT the Mehdi.  He never claimed to be the Mehdi.  According to the Baha'i teachings, al-Bab, Ali-Muhammad of Shiraz, was the Mehdi.

Your comment that any Baha'i whom you have pressed with this question becomes hysterically angry gave me a chuckle.  I assure you that I did not become hysterically angry and not even a bit angry.  The answer to your final question was given in the Book of Certitude itself, the answer is Qur'an 33:44 :-)

I notice that you regard "authenticity" very important.  So do I.  What are your criteria for authenticity?  The historical method?

That makes me wonder about your use of the Hadith.  You should know that there are issues about the authenticity of the Hadith.

What do you mean with "Soup"?  That is not a very precise statement.

I may be able to comment on the rest of your posting.

So long,
Enrico

 

#3 09-19-2009 01:16:05

Avjoan
New member

Re: The Baha'i Faith is a Soup.

Hello, TheMuslimAgorist!  You are obviously a deep thinker and an independent seeker after truth.  However, you leave out many details about your search.

I have been a Baha'i for more than half a century . . . and I am somewhat of a student of languages.  I will ask you some questions that I have . . . and in the process suggest some avenues of search that may prove more fruitful for you.

Whom are you asking about Quranic prophecy?  Many well-meaning Baha'is will take a stab at any question you ask, whether or not they truly have qualification in a field.  Are you asking American Baha'is who do not know Arabic?  Are you asking just any old Baha'i from Arabic or Persian background who may know Arabic language but not have deep knowledge of the Quran?  I have known dozens of Baha'is who speak Persian or Arabic languages, but only maybe two or three who have the level of knowledge about the Quran to answer your questions accurately with a reasonable degree of authority.

In what language are you seeking information about Quranic prophecy?  English or Arabic?  If you are seeking in English, then definitive answers are hard to come by.  The Quran is truly a book that can only be completely understood in its original language.  Only one small point is that there are TWO words in Arabic that are BOTH translated into English as prophet -- and Muhammad used only ONE of these when he claimed to be the Seal of the Prophets.  I am not enough a student of Arabic to be able to go further with that . . . but there is more to it.   I have a little bit of Arabic, and I have memorized a short bit of the Quran in Arabic . . . but I am VERY FAR AWAY from being qualified to answer any of your questions.  If you were in Albuquerque, I would take you to a meeting I attend there on Friday nights.  The host is a Persian Baha'i who is fluent in five languages including Arabic and English . . . and he is one of the two or three I have known who is very knowledgable about the Quran.  I would leave you to talk with him about your questions concerning Quranic prophecy.  I assume you do NOT live near Albuquerque, so I would encourage you to ask Baha'is to try to help you find someone like him.

You are also apparently an accurate thinker.  Many of the people to whom you have spoken apparently are not, judging by your account of the answers you received.  For example, you speak of people referring to Baha'u'llah as the Second Coming of Christ.  In truth . . . the Bible itself does not use the term "second coming."  It reports that Jesus said he would return "in the Glory of the Father."  The Father, of course means God.  (The name Baha'u'llah translates into English as The Glory of God.)  In English-speaking society, when speaking to Christians, however, "second coming" is often close enough.  Most English-speaking seekers have been tainted by deep-seated anti-Muslim prejudices (and I could just about write a book about church-sponsored prejudice dating from the beginning of the Islamic Dispensation up to the present -- but it would be too long for a forum like this) and we do not want those prejudices to block them from recognizing truth.   For that reason, most English-language explications of Biblical prophecy do tend to skip over those sections that refer to Muhammad . . . after all, after we help people see Baha'u'llah as return of Christ, then we can go back and help them unlearn the lamentable prejudices most of them have about Muhammad and Islam and see Muhammad, too, as return of Christ.  Baha'is learn to love and revere Muhammad and Islam, and they come to understand that there has been not only a second coming of Christ, but a third and a fourth.

There is another key factor to consider in your search for truth, and that is the nature of revelation.  In our humanistic, rational age, it is unfashionable to consider that there are other ways ways of knowing than reason.  Revelation is a very specific thing that happens to Manifestations (or you would call them prophets).  Its physical and mental impact is so powerful that it would, by the accounts of both Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, destroy an ordinary human.  Most religions have not preserved accounts of this phenomenon; but there are accounts in both Islamic and Baha'i sources.  Learning more about this phenomenon might also help you judge -- but both Muslims and Baha'is do not give these accounts HUGE prominence because it is the nature of our era to denigrate everything that is not limited to reason.

In the Bible Christ also gives another criterion for recognizing Him in His return.  He says you can judge between the true and the false by their fruits.  Did you know that there have been literally hundreds of people who claimed to be the return of Christ?  At the end of the 1800s, the Seventh Day Adventists published a 4-volume work called The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers (as I recall) -- in the late 1960s I was working in the University of Pennsylvania library, and I came across a copy of this work.  The ENTIRE second volume consisted merely of a LISTING -- no details, just a list -- of people who had claimed to be the return of Christ.  So . . . WHAT are the fruits of a Manifestation of God?  Their own exemplary lives, the books that grew out of revelation, and the civilization that ultimately grows out of the teachings.  (Obviously none of the hundreds listed in the book I found left these behind.)  Many Christians think a City of God will plop down out of the heavens at the time of the end and they will just walk in without effort.  But in reality, what happens is that the Manifestation leaves us a blueprint, a plan -- and we, ourselves, must do the building of the City of God, that civilization attributable to the Manifestation.  Baha'is are barely in the earliest stages of building the civilization, but you can study the life of Baha'u'llah and you can study the enormous body of His writings.

RE your example of the birth of Christ . . . in the Latin Vulgate Bible from which the King James Bible was translated, it says Christ was born in a watering trough (maybe IT was under a palm tree)  . . . apparently King James' translators thought that not sufficiently poetic.  And the Bible does not say the Wise Men were present at the actual birth, merely that they arrived soon after the birth to pay homage.  The Baha'i writings tell us that these were Zoroastrian sages who had studied the prophecies of Zoroaster sufficiently well to be able to follow the famous star to find Christ.

I have the impression that you have studied the Book of Certitude a lot.  Have you read others of the many books and tablets Baha'u'llah wrote?  Have you read the writings of His son 'Abdu'l-Baha, whom He authorized to interpret His writings?  If not yet . . . then when you become familiar with more of the Baha'i teachings, you will see that they are not, in fact, a "soup," but rather a very specific construct.  Revelation-based knowledge always transforms concepts . . . as, for example, Muhammad's revelation-based knowledge transformed human concepts of government from a city-state concept to a concept of nationhood different in many significant points, changed the roots of science from imprecise calculation to a system based on highly developed math, as well as transformed such diverse fields as architecture, medicine, and even cooking.  Baha'u'llah's teachings help us to begin to understand government, education, marriage, and the ways the many religions are related in a transformative way. (to mention only a few out of many things)  This is another characteristic of revelation-based knowledge, that it puts a whole new spin on everything that humans knew up to that point.

So, TheMuslimAgorist, continue your wonderfully open-minded search.  Push the envelope.  If you ever see me on Yahoo Messenger, identify yourself, and we can talk more if you wish -- I use the same "handle" there as here.  Don't give up.  Just because some of the answers you want are hard to find does not mean that they are not there.

Love and Peace . . . Avjoan

 

#4 09-23-2009 11:12:41

enrico
New member

Re: The Baha'i Faith is a Soup.

Hi!

Another small issue.  It seems that you spoke with Baha'is that do not know much about the relationship between Islam and the Baha'i Faith.  Actually, I am one of them.  However, this I know:

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be a prophet and he indeed considered Muhammad to be the last of the prophets.

Best,
Enrico

 

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